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Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: gammaray (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2017 10:59AM

cycler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NO, Health care is and never will be considered a
> "right" by many - yes it is by many but Why would
> you think so ? That's not to say every effort
> should not be made to provide medical care to the
> society as a whole.
>
> Healthcare is a business, not unlike agriculture
> is a business that provides food. Is access to
> food a right ?
>
> or: equality of opportunity is not a natural
> state; it is a social achievement, for which
> government shares some responsibility.
>
> So, if the Government intercedes by funding
> universal access via tax dollars then yes, the
> society then has a right to healthcare, taxpayer
> or not. This is not a supportable position for
> the Right however.
Velodrome talk?

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Pismire_Is_A_Dunce (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2017 11:07AM

Barbrady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess who pays?


Who pays for retail theft? Who pays for those heroin overdoses there?

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Pismire_Is_A_Dunce (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2017 11:10AM

Barbrady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JackReacher2015 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Barbrady Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > When Uncle Sam pays for these other
> countries'
> > > defense they can afford to pay for their
> health
> > > care.
> > ////
> >
> > I really hate to sound like Webby but you
> really
> > are a dunce, Barbie. If you knew anything about
> > healthcare in foreign countries, you'd know
> that
> > taxes are higher in such countries in order to
> pay
> > for healthcare and the citizens have no
> problems
> > with it being that way.
> > Oh, and in some instances free university
> tuitions
> > are also included.
>
>
> I never said their taxes were high and I never
> said their taxes were low.
>
> If they didn't have the U.S. taxpayer subsidizing
> their defense, their taxes would be that much
> higher. It's not that complicated.


You do realize that America WANTS TO have bases and weapons all over the world? It helps us protect the homeland. It isn't like these countries beg us to stay and protect them.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Pismire_Is_A_Dunce (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2017 11:16AM

cycler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NO, Health care is and never will be considered a
> "right" by many - yes it is by many but Why would
> you think so ? That's not to say every effort
> should not be made to provide medical care to the
> society as a whole.
>
> Healthcare is a business, not unlike agriculture
> is a business that provides food. Is access to
> food a right ?
>
> or: equality of opportunity is not a natural
> state; it is a social achievement, for which
> government shares some responsibility.
>
> So, if the Government intercedes by funding
> universal access via tax dollars then yes, the
> society then has a right to healthcare, taxpayer
> or not. This is not a supportable position for
> the Right however.


Health care is a SCAM!!! It's ONLY a business until you become unhealthy. That's why preexisting CONditions were always NOT COVERED until the ACA. It's also why BUSINESS doesn't cover you after you turn 65. Unless you consider those practically worthless small extra coverages you can get to supplement Medicare.

Insurance companies are the bad guys. They are nothing more than transfer payment middle men who suck off a huge profit.

That's why a single payer system is so much more efficient and more cost effective.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Pismire_Is_A_Dunce (IP Logged)
Date: March 04, 2017 11:19AM

This right wing business is always more efficient idiocy is tiring.

Yeah, GM was so efficient, that the government had to bail them out.

The banks and investment houses were so efficient, until they almost collapsed the economy and government had to bail them out.

What business likes is privatized profits and socialized losses. They like that they can take ridiculous risks for oversized profits, because if it doesn't work out, the taxpayers will backstop them.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: cycler (IP Logged)
Date: March 05, 2017 08:08AM

Typical addled thoughts Pis..

Bank failures had nothing to do with market efficiencies, or, they were VERY efficient at maximizing their Traders profits.

But back to Healthcare. The market was well served in the decades since the inception of employer funded healthcare in the 1940 ( an interesting story in itself should you care to become knowledgeable about the topic) as employee compensation UNTIL the cost of care itself outpaced the ability of corporations to meet ever rising premiums. And their are various reasons for that.

SO yes, the USA is slowly moving to a single payor system in which for profit Health Insurance companies will on take on the roll of administrators for the large hospital systems they will acquire or in some similar arrangement. They will compete with even larger Hospitals systems who will run their own administration of benefits. - think Cleveland clinic and its ever expanding footprint , like UPMC's.

You only have to look to the Pittsburgh market and the HIghmark vs UPMC lawsuit for a framework of how the future of healthcare will evolve - regardless of which party sits in the Whitehouse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2017 08:10AM by cycler.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Pismire_Is_A_Dunce (IP Logged)
Date: March 06, 2017 12:17PM

cycler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Typical addled thoughts Pis..
>
> Bank failures had nothing to do with market
> efficiencies, or, they were VERY efficient at
> maximizing their Traders profits.
>
> But back to Healthcare. The market was well served
> in the decades since the inception of employer
> funded healthcare in the 1940 ( an interesting
> story in itself should you care to become
> knowledgeable about the topic) as employee
> compensation UNTIL the cost of care itself
> outpaced the ability of corporations to meet ever
> rising premiums. And their are various reasons for
> that.
>
> SO yes, the USA is slowly moving to a single payor
> system in which for profit Health Insurance
> companies will on take on the roll of
> administrators for the large hospital systems they
> will acquire or in some similar arrangement. They
> will compete with even larger Hospitals systems
> who will run their own administration of benefits.
> - think Cleveland clinic and its ever expanding
> footprint , like UPMC's.
>
> You only have to look to the Pittsburgh market
> and the HIghmark vs UPMC lawsuit for a framework
> of how the future of healthcare will evolve -
> regardless of which party sits in the Whitehouse.


When the CONsumer doesn't pay and has no idea what his/her care costs, is when the price of health care started to rise 10+% every year. And US companies didn't care what the increases were, since they just passed it along to the consumer. That ended 30 or so years ago, when competition around the globe expanded. GM can't just raise the price of the Crude to cover the increasing health care costs of the monkeys.

Teach me about health care doosher. I need the lesson!!! ROTFLMAO.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: cycler (IP Logged)
Date: March 08, 2017 08:47AM

Teach you ? - seems improbable but:

You seem to have a very limited understanding of the healthcare and insurance industries.

I suggest you look into the origins of employer funded healthcare during the federally imposed wage freeze during the war years. what you will ( perhaps) come to understand is that some very connected Congressman and General Insurance industry execs did was create a loophole that literally created the health care insurance industry ( almost non-existent at that time) and, in doing so, wildly enriched themselves and the corporate entities that grew from it.

In other words: it was the bosses who benefited to an outsized degree relative to the wage earners you so disparage. Myopia.

Well, now the shareholders and multimillion dollar salaried execs are dealing with a loss of premiums and collapse of the industry due to the cost of medical technology. So, you are correct in a sense that detaching the patients wallet for his health care costs has become unsustainable in recent years BUT in doing so historically, the USA developed the most advanced medical delivery system in the world and from which other countries have largely benefitted.

Things are different now and you can be assured that a single payor system is only a few years away.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Webjoy (IP Logged)
Date: March 08, 2017 10:34AM

cycler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teach you ? - seems improbable but:
>
> You seem to have a very limited understanding of
> the healthcare and insurance industries.
>
> I suggest you look into the origins of employer
> funded healthcare during the federally imposed
> wage freeze during the war years. what you will (
> perhaps) come to understand is that some very
> connected Congressman and General Insurance
> industry execs did was create a loophole that
> literally created the health care insurance
> industry ( almost non-existent at that time) and,
> in doing so, wildly enriched themselves and the
> corporate entities that grew from it.
>
> In other words: it was the bosses who benefited to
> an outsized degree relative to the wage earners
> you so disparage. Myopia.
>
> Well, now the shareholders and multimillion dollar
> salaried execs are dealing with a loss of premiums
> and collapse of the industry due to the cost of
> medical technology. So, you are correct in a
> sense that detaching the patients wallet for his
> health care costs has become unsustainable in
> recent years BUT in doing so historically, the USA
> developed the most advanced medical delivery
> system in the world and from which other countries
> have largely benefitted.
>
> Things are different now and you can be assured
> that a single payor system is only a few years
> away.

I love it. Cycler commentary on how health care insurance came about. Who cares and what does something that began 70+ years ago have to do with today's health care system?

And his false claim that American health care companies have used the high costs to develop better drugs and machines is hilarious. Talking point of big pharmaceutical. The truth is, R&D is a small fraction of the spend of these companies and I wasn't aware the insurance companies developed new technologies to improve outcomes?

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: cycler (IP Logged)
Date: March 08, 2017 04:00PM

well doofus, You asked me to teach you about a topic u seem to know not much of anything about. So that was lesson one.

Lesson two is to correct your error blaming Pharma. for health care high costs - nonsense. Stop making stuff as you go along and get informed. The high costs of US healthcare reflects PRIMARILY the steady increasing costs of medical technology; big ticket items. Peek inside an OR suite or Imaging department for instance.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Webjoy (IP Logged)
Date: March 08, 2017 08:56PM

cycler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well doofus, You asked me to teach you about a
> topic u seem to know not much of anything about.
> So that was lesson one.
>
> Lesson two is to correct your error blaming
> Pharma. for health care high costs - nonsense.
> Stop making stuff as you go along and get
> informed. The high costs of US healthcare
> reflects PRIMARILY the steady increasing costs of
> medical technology; big ticket items. Peek inside
> an OR suite or Imaging department for instance.


LOL, When did I say it was big pharma that was the cause of health care's exorbitant costs? I didn't arse hole.

But, everyone is at the trough. Doctors, Nurses, hospitals, insurance, pharma, are all to blame.

It was a free for all for the last 30 years. Raise prices as much as you want. It didn't matter since the customer had no idea what he was paying and didn't care. His employer was picking up the tab.

Those days are over. A single payer system is inevitable.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: cycler (IP Logged)
Date: March 09, 2017 02:30PM

Nonsense. DR.s and nurses and caregivers share none of the "blame". Technology is what has driven cost increases and the delivery of care by the woefully underpaid caregivers. That and the siphoning of the needed cash to insurance companies and shareholders.

But I'm glad to see you agree with me that a single payor system is where we are heading. Again - the Highmark / UPMC lawsuit is constructive in that regard

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Pismire_Is_A_Dunce (IP Logged)
Date: March 09, 2017 03:26PM

cycler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nonsense. DR.s and nurses and caregivers share
> none of the "blame". Technology is what has
> driven cost increases and the delivery of care by
> the woefully underpaid caregivers. That and the
> siphoning of the needed cash to insurance
> companies and shareholders.
>
> But I'm glad to see you agree with me that a
> single payor system is where we are heading. Again
> - the Highmark / UPMC lawsuit is constructive in
> that regard


Complete bullshiite. Everyone deserves some blame. Everyone.

Docs ordering too many tests. Specialist making way too much money. Nurses demanding too much money and too many breaks and 12 hour shifts. Hospitals billing $50 for a band-aid. The whole system is broken. Even lawyers are part of the problem sue happy.

Health care systems in Canada and Europe are incredible. Cost 10% or less of GDP and get better outcomes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2017 03:27PM by Pismire_Is_A_Dunce.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: cycler (IP Logged)
Date: March 09, 2017 09:11PM

Everyone ? Based on what - your usual faulty assumptions ?

Specialist pay is simply commensurate with their years of training and FAR FAR below and Insurance exec. Average is about $350K/yr compared to approx $150K or so for Primary Care/ PEDS/ etc.

Lawsuits for malpractice have not been shown to increase the costs via "defensive medicine" practice ( numerous studies )

Nurses are inhumanely overworked due to chronic short staffing models as hospitals struggle to stay solvent, subject to unscheduled but mandatory overtime of double shifts and no longer have the once ubiquitous support staff so doing twice the workload for over all less pay than a decade ago. ( ask around )

The reason you see 8 dollar aspirin and 30 dollar band aids is the necessary outcome of the mandated uninsured care. For instance - the use of high caliber weapons in urban crime has resulted in caring for battle field type injuries, far more complex and costly to repair than the type of gun shot wounds seen in ERs just twenty years ago - a by product of the lax gun laws. These victims are universally uninsured. It simply part of the bargain and would then be eliminated under a single payor system.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Hemingway (IP Logged)
Date: March 09, 2017 11:38PM

There's a physician shortage as it is. Paying them less would exacerbate the shortage. There are a growing number of physicians that don't even take insurance anymore and still have a lucrative practice. Many Cardiologists have stopped seeing MediCal patients because of the low reimbursement rates.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2017 11:40PM by Hemingway.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Webjoy (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2017 07:39AM

Wow, are you people misinformed. There is a shortage of doctors BECAUSE US med schools limit the number of people who can get in.

And look at the wages of doctors in the US compared to doctors in Europe and Canada. Do you people read stuff?

Doctors in the US are the highest paid in the world. By a WIDE MARGIN!!!

General practitioners in the US make almost 200K.

In Europe it ranges from 70K to 120K. In the UK it is 120K.

My god are you people misinformed. Why isn't there a doctor shortage in the other industrialized countries? (Canada and Europe)

Another problem is too many become specialist and not PCP's. Because specialists can make millions more than a PCP.

Here's a good read for people with uninformed opinions that are mostly wrong.

My suggestion, read more, post bullshiite less.

[economix.blogs.nytimes.com]



[www.nytimes.com]

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Webjoy (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2017 08:03AM

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a physician shortage as it is. Paying them
> less would exacerbate the shortage. There are a
> growing number of physicians that don't even take
> insurance anymore and still have a lucrative
> practice. Many Cardiologists have stopped seeing
> MediCal patients because of the low reimbursement
> rates.


It's all self created. Med schools limit the number of students, immigrant doctors from outside the US are limited.

You people are the result of USA today. Headline readers only. Oh, there is a doctor shortage, I read it. You didn't read WHY there is a doctor shortage.

And colleges took advantage of the fact that to earn a good living, you needed a college education. So college costs rose faster than the inflation rate. It was a death spiral that is now coming home to roost.

2 things whose costs rose much faster than the rate of inflation over the last 30+ years was health care and college tuition.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Hemingway (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2017 10:21AM

Actually other industrialised countries do have a physician shortage. For example, Germany, for years, has had a serious problem of their physicians emigrating.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Webjoy (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2017 10:24AM

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually other industrialised countries do have a
> physician shortage. For example, Germany, for
> years, has had a serious problem of their
> physicians emigrating.


LOL, Hummer finds one country in the single payer system that has a shortage and therefore they all have shortages!!!

Beautiful.

What a moron. How are those 10 shares of TRN doing?

You forgot to mention all the Syrian doctors in Germany? An oversight?

[foreignpolicy.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2017 10:28AM by Webjoy.

Re: "Fixing health care"
Posted by: Hemingway (IP Logged)
Date: March 10, 2017 10:33AM

Webjoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hemingway Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually other industrialised countries do have
> a
> > physician shortage. For example, Germany, for
> > years, has had a serious problem of their
> > physicians emigrating.
>
>
> LOL, Hummer finds one country in the single payer
> system that has a shortage and therefore they all
> have shortages!!!
>
> Beautiful.
>
> What a moron. How are those 10 shares of TRN
> doing?

A moron is someone who claims other people are misinformed while simultaneously being oblivious that the most populous country in Western Europe has a severe doctor shortage. By the way, that shortage is spreading across Europe.

Get informed yourself before you accuse others of being misinformed. That way these embarrassing moments where you get exposed won't happen for you.

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